Conquering Perfectionism

Andrew Dewar [00:00:01]:

Welcome to the five year you podcast, a show dedicated to helping you become the best version of yourself one day at a time. I'm Andrew.

Catherine Collins [00:00:09]:

And I'm Cat. And we promise to keep it raw, real, and relatable.

Andrew Dewar [00:00:14]:

Are you ready to grow? This episode is all about conquering perfection. It's something that I think a lot of us struggle with. I'm really excited to dive into it. Cat, how are you doing today?

Catherine Collins [00:00:26]:

Oh, I'm all right. I feel like this is gonna be very me focused. It's okay. I'm here for it. I'm here to help others.

Andrew Dewar [00:00:35]:

I know in our team dynamic, you are the one that gets it done nice and precise, and I'm the fast one. That kind of good is better than not done. But I never allow myself to get to great, which is funny, because I still battle with perfectionism in my head over a ton of other things. That's always been our work dynamic. I'll get the bulk of it done, and you're going to do the fine tuning of it all, and I'm grateful for that dynamic. Of course, when it comes to perfectionism, can you explain your mindset for somebody who's listening at home? Because I think a lot of us probably have this, and we're going, well, I'm not a perfectionist, but what is the thought going on as you do.

Catherine Collins [00:01:14]:

Something like, it's hard to separate out what the thought is, and it's hard to separate out if this is like a nature versus nurture thing. Because I have been a perfectionist my whole life. I have held myself to impossible standards my whole life. You know, my mom used to say, like, this is just kind of how you are. Like, we never said, oh, you have to have perfect grades or you have to do this or you have to do that. Like, you always put it on yourself. You put the pressure on yourself. Like, just very achiever based, goal oriented.

Catherine Collins [00:01:48]:

But I do think that because, you know, my parents, you know, have pretty intense jobs and intense careers, and because they held themselves to a high standard and other people held them to high standards, I think I just soaked it in and, like, created a belief that if you do something, you have to do it perfectly in order to be liked, accepted. Like, you have to have all of these accolades, and you have to get these things in order to be, you know, liked and loved and to move to the next stage in life. There was, like, nothing more important than becoming a self sustaining, independent person. You know, like my mom said, you always have to, like, find something you can do to, like, serve and to give back to people. I call myself a recovering perfectionist, and I think I've called myself that for years. I can't foresee a time in the future, or at least in the near future, where I say I'm a recovered perfectionist. I don't know what the mindset is. It just is.

Catherine Collins [00:02:54]:

It's just like, unless it's perfect, this client's not going to like it unless I look perfect. I'm not going to be loved unless I like. I mean, it. It can be challenging to my brain. You're very helpful in helping me untangle the work stuff because you told me we can always go back and fix stuff. Because if we left our business up to me, nothing would ever get done. Because it's an anxiousness almost of like, and there's a little bit of obsessive compulsive with it. And you know, this, like, if I have to do a final read through of my articles, and if you ask me a question or something during a final read through, I can't go back into the middle.

Catherine Collins [00:03:38]:

We're talking like 2000 word articles. I gotta go back to the top again. And to me, I have to be able to read it through perfectly once before I turn it in. And if I find, like, a comma or something, I gotta do it again, and something is wrong with me. Like, I don't know what else to say, but sometimes perfectionism's a good thing, right? It's what makes me good at my job. A lot of times. It holds me back, though. You introduced me to the idea of b work, which was a completely foreign concept to me and something I've never aimed for in my entire life.

Catherine Collins [00:04:12]:

I've never aimed for a b, ever. And you told me that it was okay, that we have to execute. And sometimes, like entrepreneurs, they can't be successful if they're perfectionists. Like, you've got to, like, throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. And so I had to learn how to be open to that in order to, like, actually move myself to a different level in our business.

Andrew Dewar [00:04:38]:

Thank you for being so open and honest about all of that.

Catherine Collins [00:04:41]:

Well, I think if anyone spends five minutes with me, I think it's pretty obvious.

Andrew Dewar [00:04:45]:

But, like, you know, I don't think it is. I want to go back to a couple of things because I think there's something really, really deeply rooted there. And it's, if I don't do these things, I'm not going to be perfect. I'm not going to be loved. I'm not going to be good enough. I believe that perfectionism comes from that need to be perfect. That need to be. And what is perfect? Perfect is being loved.

Andrew Dewar [00:05:12]:

It's being accepted is really what is coming. And there is a place for, you know, making sure things are well cited and well written. And that's your profession. And that is needed. It's not needed for this conversation to be fully scripted before we sit down, because we know that when our minds get together and we work, it's not going to be perfect, but it's going to be something better than that. It's going to be honest and open and raw and pure. And that is something very, very different. So I do see a place for perfectionism, but when I'm looking at it, and I've worked with people on this in coaching and in a bunch of different ways, perfectionism comes from a very small age.

Andrew Dewar [00:05:58]:

It comes from a, that moment when you're told that you didn't do enough. And then we set up rules. The first place, most of us, I mean, sure, probably happens in the home, you know, you didn't clear the plates or whatever, but the place where it gets just drilled into us for twelve years and beyond is school. You know, you don't get 100% of the test. You don't get asked which 90 questions you got right. You get asked which one or which ten or whichever you got wrong. We put such a negative emphasis on our education and that drive to succeed that we all think we have to be perfect and we were born perfect. This really works me up.

Andrew Dewar [00:06:40]:

I'm like doing my best not to start raising my voice and everything. To us, it's just wrong for us all to think that we're not great, that we have to adhere to some sort of standard inside or outside of us that is unattainable because you're setting yourself up for misery at that point. So from a point of view that I've seen in too many people now to ignore, you're born perfect. The only imperfect thing that happened was that somebody convinced you otherwise. And I think so many of us are just bracing to get back to this place where we don't feel like we have to do everything right to be adequate. And it just, it's so bothersome for me. I'm getting a little emotional with this.

Catherine Collins [00:07:26]:

Well, it's a system designed to reward a certain group of people. It doesn't leave a lot of room for creativity. Neurodivergence is a very popular topic right now. It is all a part of the rules of life. That's like, you must do well in school so that you can get into a good college. And if you don't, like, you're going to be a failure at life. And that's just simply not true. These are all things that you and I have learned over the last few years through intensive reading and study and personal development through therapy.

Catherine Collins [00:08:03]:

And it has made such an impact on me that one of the things I tell my kids a lot is that I love you. That's it. Full stop. You don't have to do anything for me to love you. You don't have to get any certain grade for me to love you. You don't have to catch the interception at the football game. Those things are cool and exciting and great. But I love you exactly as you are, and nothing is going to change that.

Catherine Collins [00:08:34]:

You do not have to earn it. It just is. And. But that's a very, like, millennial, you know, we're all very pro mental health and conscious parenting type of people. You know, I think it's an improvement.

Andrew Dewar [00:08:48]:

Honestly, I think it is, too. I think for myself, like, there's always that fear of what if I did it wrong? And when you think about doing something, air quotes wrong, it's not so much that you've done something wrong, it's that you found a way that maybe didn't work. And it's just that there's needs to be a reframing on it, because to get past this perfectionism, to overcome it, is to accept yourself for your flaws. I don't view them as flaws, but I think that's why most people are going to label them. We all have our things that we want to improve. It's why we exist. We came here to grow. And I think when we can really get down to it, the need to be perfect isn't needed.

Andrew Dewar [00:09:32]:

Yeah. Do I want somebody who's doing my surgery to be very meticulous and precise? Yes. Do I want them to follow the procedures? Yes. There are places where these things are needed, but perfectionism is more than that. Right. Because that's just like, if you gotta be perfect in your job, because you have a very detailed. I mean, NASA, all these, like, brain surgery, like, all these things that I'm never gonna touch, it's needed. But then there's that other part of it where it's the emotional aspect of it is really it.

Andrew Dewar [00:10:03]:

And it really comes from a place of feeling that I need to do something more to be loved for who I actually am. And it's really telling yourself that you are not enough. And I think when we strip it all away, and I know there's probably ten steps I could have gone through to get to this bottom root thing, but it's a half hour show, and I want to get down to it. It comes down to the fact that some part of you doesn't think you're enough. That's not me saying you, Catherine. This is me saying everybody that struggles with this, just like I do, too. And it's being able to look at yourself first and go, I'm enough. So if my makeup's on messy, if my hair's a little off, if I got a pimple in the middle of my forehead that everybody can see, I'm still okay, I'm still going to love myself.

Andrew Dewar [00:10:51]:

I think part of it, and maybe you can correct me on this, but part of it really is seeing what we didn't do, that missing aspect, rather than seeing the 90 questions we got right and focusing on the 90 questions that we knew, focusing on the 90%, or in more in my case, the 75% b work. You know, like, there's this part of us that really we need to accept ourselves as we are and learn to love ourselves. Because to me, that is how you get. You conquer perfectionism.

Catherine Collins [00:11:22]:

Yeah. I think it is an internal job, and it's challenging because, like you said, just our world, our education system, everything is designed to promote this. I mean, you're talking about appearance. I think about the just unnecessarily high standards, especially female beauty standards that women, quote unquote, have to adhere to. And it pretty much makes it near impossible for people to look in the mirror and like, what they see. And of course, those beauty standards are created and manipulated, and they're not real. Or maybe they're real for, like, 1% of 1% of the population who are, like, supermodels or something, but, like, it's unattainable and it leads to a lot of unhappiness. And I believe it was the holistic psychologist on Instagram that said, perfectionism is a trauma response.

Catherine Collins [00:12:23]:

It's a control mechanism in an out of control world. Wherever you, meaning me, meaning everyone, we try to control outcomes in a world where outcomes aren't guaranteed. And it's a perfectionist way of making sense of the world. The truth is, no matter how perfect the articles I write turn out to be, things completely outside of my control can affect work like Google algorithms and company budgets and staffing changes, and companies going in new directions. That has nothing to do with me or my writing skill or anything. They're challenging things to take in. But it is a self worth issue, it's a control issue, it's a response to outer stimuli, but it's exhausting to try to keep up for sure.

Andrew Dewar [00:13:17]:

Oh, absolutely. Something came to mind as you were talking about the magazines and, you know, just the incessant beauty that we try to keep up with their business is to make sure that, you know, you're imperfect so that they can sell you their stuff. And it's kind of toxic when you, when you boil it down. I'm not saying that I don't want to look good. I did my hair before this podcast, I brushed my teeth, I did the things that, you know, a normal human probably would do before going in front of a camera. I don't know why I brush my teeth, I'm in a room by myself. But whatever, not the point, just, you know, being a human. But when it comes to, to a lot of this stuff is like think about why we're made to feel less than.

Andrew Dewar [00:14:00]:

And in a big part of the commercial world, if you don't have this, if you don't look like this, if you don't eat this, or then you'll never feel good or you're never going to feel perfect. This is the biggest part of our program is coming to who you want to be, not who the world says you want to be. It's really coming to that inside part of you that goes, look, I'm okay with, you know, just running a comb through my hair and wearing my comfies and doing, you know, the things that I love to do. That's my best version of myself. And everything else is a disservice to me because it's a lie. That doesn't mean, you know, going to a wedding. I'm not going to put on a suit because there's formalities and stuff like that. There are times and places for certain things, but there's also that place where you can look at things and go, the way I'm living isn't the way I want to live.

Andrew Dewar [00:14:51]:

And it's okay to have that realization and to create that version of you that is your own version of perfection because, and you can step into that as soon as you start loving yourself, you can go, look, you know, I'm a little lazy. I love myself for that. So, you know, 07:00 rolls around and I'm going to sit on the couch and watch the latest movie because I like movies, or I'm going to binge watch Veep because Veep's awesome. Or whatever this thing you're doing at that moment, it's okay. But it's an internal job because you can write that perfect article. We can publish the most perfect podcast. The second somebody comes in from the outside and says, you guys, the sound was bad, you guys, you missed a comma. You did this.

Andrew Dewar [00:15:37]:

The second we believe that from the outside world, we go, oh, shoot, we're imperfect again. And now we got to amp up and do all these things to please this outside voice. Whereas the reality is that we all live within ourselves. And if we can find that peace and happiness and joy in loving ourselves, then when somebody comes and does that, we can just look at them and go, whatever. It's just a bird chirping. Who cares?

Catherine Collins [00:16:02]:

I think another way to say it is there's nothing that you can fix on the outside that will change, like how you feel about yourself on the inside. Right? Like, all of these things are an inside job. And the stronger you are in your sense of self worth, which is something I have to continuously work on, the less the outside opinions matter. It's tough, though.

Andrew Dewar [00:16:29]:

It is. I think that also speaks to finding your tribe and finding your community. Wherever I. When you are amongst people that support you, that accept you as you. And sometimes these have to be new friends because there's so much plaster over who you are to be accepted amongst past people or people just know you a different way. But to have that community of people like we're creating people who are like, look, I see you. I don't care if you, you know, if you're a rock star or a bum on the beach or you do whatever. I just want you to be your best version of yourself, and I'm going to support you and cheer you on, because, God, that's what we all need most of the time.

Andrew Dewar [00:17:13]:

We don't need the outside voices telling us that we're not enough. We already have those inside voices that are doing that. Finding the right people, the people that support you, the people that go, yeah, you know, you're really screwed up this time, but that's part of it, and that's good. And you can laugh about it. You can go, yep. I'm still learning, you know, just figuring it all out. I think it speaks a lot to have the right people around you. And to your credit, Catherine, you are one of the right people around me.

Andrew Dewar [00:17:41]:

I don't have a lot of people around me, but I make sure the ones that are. Are the right ones. And, you know, when I am feeling very less than perfect, you remind me that that's not the case. So thank you for that.

Catherine Collins [00:17:55]:

You're welcome.

Andrew Dewar [00:17:56]:

I think we need our tribes to be people that support us, not people that tear us down.

Catherine Collins [00:18:02]:

Well, I think that's a good point. And, of course, you are that for me as well. You're very accepting of me and all my. My quirks and highs and lows, and I appreciate that, honestly. On that note, if you're listening to this and you're with somebody who does not appreciate your quirks or who's critical of you, how you sound, what you wear, what you do all day, you might be in an incredibly unhealthy situation for your mental health, for your growth, for you to just get to be authentically you and happy, it really makes a big difference to get into a situation where you're accepted just as you are. Just like I tell my kids, they're just perfect just as they are. They don't have to do anything to get my approval. They just have it because I'm their mom.

Andrew Dewar [00:18:51]:

That's so nice to have.

Catherine Collins [00:18:52]:

Yeah. It's good to notice and to look around yourself and have that awareness and be like, wait, do my friends expect me to be this way? Look this way? Are there these, like, unseen expectations? Is my partner critical of how I look or. I don't know. There's a lot of different red flags out there on this topic to be aware of. And my hope is that somebody listening to this, this might be the first time where they tell themselves, like, wait, the situation I'm in, this is not. This whole thing is about perfectionism. I think it hits women particularly hard. I think social media has done a massive disservice to us.

Catherine Collins [00:19:32]:

I think it's very difficult on mothers. There is sort of this idea of the perfect mother. And if we feel like we're not measuring up, there can be a lot of self loathing, and all of these things could contribute to a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression. It's not just, like, work that perfectionism shows up. It can show up in many different aspects of our life. It's the standard we hold ourselves to. And for a lot of people, it's making them very unhappy and sick. Hopefully, you can have, like, sort of a come to Jesus moment like me and realize, like, I have to stop basing my happiness on results, on accolades, on all of these things outside of myself.

Catherine Collins [00:20:14]:

And I have to start giving myself that inner child the words that I have always needed, which are the words I give to my kids now. Right. But I don't have to do anything to be worthy. And perfectionism is an impossible standard that I don't have to meet.

Andrew Dewar [00:20:32]:

Well said. I think we should get into the whole inner child thing in another episode, because, as you know, I've started doing that work, and it really has been transformational in so many ways. I think when it comes to conquering perfection, you know, I'm just processing all that you just said. Of course. But the thing that comes to mind is that you need to learn to accept yourself and love yourself as you are. And then once you start to do that, things change, because you start to see yourself and love yourself for who you are and how you do things and know that that's okay. So that when someone else criticizes you, condemns you, or doesn't like something about your appearance, you can smile and say, I like me. And I know there's a lot of bad situations out there.

Andrew Dewar [00:21:23]:

I really hope whoever's hearing this and they might have got a bit of a gut punch right now going like, I never considered this. It may not be what you think it is, but you definitely owe it to yourself to explore why it is the way it is, because you deserve to be treated like golden. Everybody on this planet does. And I'll be the first person to put my hand up and say, I fall short in doing that, but I do my best. And if I can keep trying to be good to people, that's it. That's all I can do on a daily basis. When it comes to perfectionism, I'd love to give the listener some takeaways of what they can do.

Catherine Collins [00:22:03]:

Yeah. Take them through. Like, when we coach others, we do love to learn about the people that we help, and we do love to ask people, like, what their quirks are, like what makes them them, what they liked doing as a kid. These are some of the very. Not to steal your thunder right there, but these are examples of the things that we do.

Andrew Dewar [00:22:26]:

Yeah. So when you're going to conquer your perfectionism, it's self acceptance. I know Cat really likes wearing bright colors, and that really lights her up, but a lot of people may not like that, but it's a self expression thing, and it's being able to look inside yourself and go, I like me when I do this. So we, in our first layer, our first, like, when we're discovering your purpose, we'll ask you questions like, what did you like to do as a kid, what lights you up today? What gives you joy? And it doesn't have to be. Well, I like, you know, when I write, or it can just be, I like making food for people, or I like to try a new recipe every week. I'm hungry right now. So these are all starting to become food based. Or I like to garden, or I like to smile at strangers because I know that when they smile back, I've done something inside of them that money can't buy.

Andrew Dewar [00:23:24]:

There's a million different things that might reveal who you truly are. And you can't be that person. When you're trying to be perfect for everyone else, you have to accept yourself as you are. And when you do that, you start to see the perfection that truly is within you. And you learn to love yourself. And from there, your purpose, your life just changes in the best ways you can imagine. And I think you owe it to yourself to explore that, because life is better when you live on purpose. And so many of us, when you are trying to be a perfectionist.

Andrew Dewar [00:23:57]:

And I say trying because I don't know if anybody's ever said I have a successful perfectionist. Which is kind of ironic when you think about it.

Catherine Collins [00:24:04]:

No one's.

Andrew Dewar [00:24:05]:

Nobody ever says I'm a failing perfectionist. But when you truly can embrace who you are for all that you are, it really does shift your life. I've lived it. I know Catherine has, too. We've seen it in others. Your life starts to change because for the first time in your life, possibly, you're being true to yourself and you start to create this life that is yours by design. So many. We're all living life by accident, trying to please everybody else.

Andrew Dewar [00:24:34]:

So let's come back. Let's start discovering our purpose and start living life on purpose.

Catherine Collins [00:24:40]:

I love that. And I think that's a good place to stop and move on to our glimmers, which are these sparkly, happy things that we just like sharing with you. We just like to give you one thing that we're enjoying. So, Andrew, why don't you go first this week?

Andrew Dewar [00:24:57]:

I mentioned last week about the exercise ball, but right now I am just really into the little vitamins that I've been taking to improve my well being. I kind of was vitamin deficient for a long, long time, for my whole life. And so I'm just really grateful. It's amazing what happens when you get the right things inside of you and how you. You think something's wrong with you. You know, you're feeling down all the time and I started taking B vitamins, and suddenly I'm like, oh, my goodness. This is what it's like to have.

Catherine Collins [00:25:29]:

You know, a little bit more pep.

Andrew Dewar [00:25:31]:

Perkiness. Yeah, a little more pep in my step and all this stuff. So that's. That's it. It's. I'm just really shiny about the fact that I'm giving myself permission to try things. Not all of them have been great, for the record. But again, I'm not trying to be perfect with it.

Andrew Dewar [00:25:46]:

I'm trying to figure me out.

Catherine Collins [00:25:48]:

Yeah, I love that.

Andrew Dewar [00:25:50]:

How about you, cat? What's yours?

Catherine Collins [00:25:51]:

Yeah, speaking of me liking bright colors and stuff, after getting Lasik, like, well over ten years ago, I'm starting to go a little nearsighted in one eye. And if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see I got some cool pink glasses, and I like them. And they're kind of, you know, a little. Wow. You know, a little on the out there side. But, gosh, I'm grateful for them. I was coming home from visiting Andrew in Canada yesterday, and it makes the big difference in the airport with the 80 bajillion signs. Who knew? So, yeah, that's my glimmer.

Catherine Collins [00:26:26]:

I am enjoying being my best self with my bright colors, and it's making me happy.

Andrew Dewar [00:26:30]:

Awesome. And they look good on you, too, which is, you know, thank you. Just icing. Icing on the cake. All right, everyone, we hope you have a great week, and we'll see you next time. Take care.

Catherine Collins [00:26:40]:

Bye. Hey, guys, quick disclaimer. We're podcasters on the Internet. If you need to seek professional help, please go see your healthcare professional.

Andrew Dewar [00:26:51]:

One last thing. Don't forget to go to fiveyouryou.com/future to start getting those emails from your future self. It will change your life.